Ep13: Is Feedback on Scenes and Post Show Notes Bad?

Linda and James delve into the dos and don'ts of giving feedback on improv shows with their own stories on what they've learned the hard way. 

Have a question or Improv related topic you'd like to hear us discuss? Send a short email to LindaTellsJames@gmail.com

A new episode every Tuesday! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:06

Hi James. Hi Linda. Welcome everyone to another episode of Linda Tells James. It is rumbling improv.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

We talk about improv, um, have a question or a statement, and then we um pull it apart, put it back together and discuss.

SPEAKER_05 0:21

We discuss, we discuss folks um to entertain and maybe poke a little bit in of interest amongst you.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

You've got an interest in your brain that we just kind of get a stick of your. It's been good. How have you been?

SPEAKER_05 0:38

I've been very well. Oh, good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Very good.

SPEAKER_05 0:41

Okay, I have nothing exciting to report. No. That sounds good. I now live, you know, a pretty domestic life.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Great. Yeah. Well, what have you cooked recently or baked?

SPEAKER_05 0:51

Oh, I attempted to make English muffins yesterday. Oh. You know, there's spoingy spoingy English bread type muffins, kind of um cake like American muffins.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

But you said attempt.

SPEAKER_05 1:03

I attempted to.

unknown 1:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:06

Well then that's a success, right? Well, I guess so, but I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so now I'm gonna I'm planning to attempt doing them again on Friday. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

What did they need?

SPEAKER_05 1:15

They needed less cooking in the oven because they were a little bit tough.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Yeah, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:19

No one likes a tough muffin.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

No. Well, unless you like tough muffins.

SPEAKER_05 1:25

Yeah. Well then I shouldn't say nobody. Yeah. Most people don't like tough muffins. Okay. Unless, of course, that well, that excludes people who do.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Generalization, abstraction.

SPEAKER_05 1:36

Yeah. Anyway, let's talk about improv. Okay. I hope that muffin chat was helpful to anyone out there. Um it was helpful to me. Hi everyone. I've got a s I've got a statement for you. Great. A question nay a discussion topic.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:55

You ready, James?

SPEAKER_00 1:56

I am ready.

SPEAKER_05 1:57

You got your pants on?

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Now I do.

SPEAKER_05 2:00

Yeah. Excellent. Feedback on scenes and post show notes are bad.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Feedback on scenes and post show notes are bad.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

James is smiling. You can hear by the delight, but he's smiling with delight about that one.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think because it's it's so you it's so that's such an interesting topic because I'm very divided on that, right? Ah, okay. Yeah. Well, because I mean, it's not it's I guess because for me, so much of improv is about failure and experimentation that it's not fair to it's not it's not just that it's not fair to kind of, you know, in you know, kind of looking back, going, oh, well, the perfect offer would have been this, or oh, you should have said that, or oh, I was thinking of that. Because in the moment, that's not what happened. But also it's just, I don't know, it's not. I mean, the question is, is it helpful? You know, because when I am teaching people, or you know, in our in our troupe doing rehearsals, it is helpful. It is important to talk about what happened and and to be able to think about it. But at the same time, as soon as you do that, you're you're you're vivisecting it, you know, you're killing something that's alive, you know. And I don't it's really hard to I I think it's really hard to figure out when it's helpful and when it's not. Because yeah, it's it's almost like it's almost like saying to an athlete, oh you should have you should have thrown the ball better.

SPEAKER_05 3:42

But you wouldn't necessarily say you should have thrown the ball better. For example, you wouldn't necessarily say, you know, you should have made a stronger offer, or you should have done a this or you shoulda, shoulda, shoulda. Yes, you should've say, how about if you did this? Or what do you think if this is an or this as an option? So so there's a difference between feedback being um proposed as something um a choice uh as opposed to being proposed as as something that that shuts down the improviser or shuts down the the liveness of the moment.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yes, yes, I 100% agree. And that's probably where my division lies, actually, is it depends on what it's you have to be very careful about how you frame the discussion and how you lead or guide it, right? After the scene or after the show. Because yeah, you're absolutely right. If it devolves down into a um finger pointing kind of, oh well, clearly I was setting up for this, you know, oh clearly he's that, how come you didn't read that? Then then it then I think the dang the huge danger is that performers end up retreating into their brains.

SPEAKER_05 4:56

Yes, of course, and of course. So what you want to do is create a space where that's not you really need to to talk about how you post-show feedback, how you actually approach it. There's um a wonderful tube from Austin, Texas called PGraph. And P Graph? Yes, it's it's a longer name, but we'll but if you if you search PGRAF, you'll find them.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

But how do you sorry, how do you spell it?

SPEAKER_05 5:20

P slash graph, but the full name is parallel something, something.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Oh okay, so graph like G-R-A-P-H. Yes. Uh okay, okay, okay. Um P Graph, right.

SPEAKER_05 5:32

Um, sorry guys, it it just completely escapes me because I'm middle-aged and I've drunk too much gin. And with my life and those brain cells are now dead dead. Um uh they have a a lovely thing they say, which is that the feedback that they give each other, so they're a quartet, um, they're now a trio, but the the the feedback they give each other post-show has to be feedback that is is to the betterment of the show. So something that serves the the show, serves the narrative, serves the character, serves the style, the genre that they're playing, it's not person-to-person feedback. So I won't give you feedback about your choices or or yeah, or what you've brought up in a scene. So it's that which I love because it is ultimately feedback post-show is about the show.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 6:23

So so if there are things that you could if if you want to address maybe things that um to avoid doing next time or or potential ideas or things that would then benefit the show or or or you know, something in how to make the strong the narrative stronger, absolutely, you're discussing it as a group. Um but anything that is just oh, you know, I did the, you know, I gave you this, uh I fed you this line, I th you know, why didn't you pick it up and why didn't you that is not benefit that is not helpful to anyone. And and um I think it's rare that that improvisers actually do that. It's only you and if and if it happens, it's only because um uh someone's scared. Yeah, someone's trying to control the situation, someone's trying to say, I gave you this thing, I was trying to control the situation, you know, uh you didn't pick up, I now think that you're a terrible improviser or whatever, whatever. And and um so I say that because if it does happen to you, you gotta understand that they're scared, they're trying to control the situation, and perhaps that's then how you respond to it. So you understand what you're trying to say, but know that by doing that, by you already predicting what you think you want me to do and say is you're trying to control thing the situation, and you've stopped improvising. You've now started to steer it. So um anyway, I digress, but but yeah, do giving feedback that um benefits the the whole show is the best thing. Now, of course, if you're a big ensemble, you don't want to do that, you don't want everyone to give um feedback. What you want is the director to give post show notes.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Yes, absolutely. So, so just to go back on what you were saying before about the because because I actually uh about um people kind of criticizing each other over you know their choices. Yeah because I do see that a lot, yeah, and you're right in in young people because they are they are scared. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:36

I think the other problem that I parallel par parallelogramophonograph. Parallelogramophonograph. Wow, it just yeah, it's come to me, but it's yeah, that's why I forgot it and I was completely graphic.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

It's great, like everyone does.

SPEAKER_05 8:52

So anyway, I apologize if you're if they're listening and I've just fucked your name. I did not mean to, but I love you. Anyway, go on.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Um yeah, but what I have seen though, however, like to kind of be on the other side of it, is when there's clearly a really uh nice way to connect back to other choices people have made in that scene, but one actor has not uh been aware enough. They haven't really, they've only really thought about their own choices and they haven't taken into account everybody else's. And that's sometimes what I see happen, and the audience can see the setup as well, and they want the payoff because they know it's right there, yeah. And then that person avoids it, not out of um, you know, stubbornness or anything, but they just were kind of in their own head and their own place instead of really listening. So, how do we deal with that? Because that to me sounds then like I'm criticizing their choices. If I say, hey, this was this this this feels like the setup, and it feels like this is what the audience wanted, but you were not aware enough of everybody else and how they were moving. Is that about it because it is about control, right?

SPEAKER_05 10:12

I mean I yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Yeah, because we are setting that up, yeah, and we're we are dictating what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_05 10:19

I think you um it's not really criticizing their choices. You're you're making them rather than saying your choice was wrong, what you're doing is you're making them aware of what else was actually potentially what was happening. Yes. So this was happening. I don't feel like you you were aware of that, were you aware of that? And if they say, Oh yeah, I was, but I decided to go down this path, then you then it's it's like okay, well, fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:47

But what you what what you're wanting to address is a is that you actually uh as the director think that they weren't aware of it. And so what you want to make them aw aware of is that they weren't aware of it. And so you you have to give them a feedback to say, oh, you didn't see this thing. Um I th I think you weren't aware of it. I think you didn't see it. Ah, great. And they might go, oh yeah, you're right. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just be, just be careful because sometimes you're in your you can get stuck in your ideas in your head. So then, and then you start to think uh as a director or as a troop, you then start to think of, okay, well, what are exercises and things that we can do to just um uh help this improviser break out of themselves and also help everyone in the group work on it because it's always a great thing to work on.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Oh, absolutely. I I remember very early on, and I and I'm sure I still do it, hopefully less now, but of yeah, being obsessed with my own ideas and being locked up in here.

SPEAKER_05 11:48

Yeah, you're still the same, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Um, did someone say something? Um, and then you know, and then really kind of having those blinders on so that when a new offer is made, I'm still locked onto what I want to do instead of actually adjusting and allowing that new idea to to come in. And I see that with um, yeah, the you know, there's a there's a group of young people I teach who are fairly advanced, but the the catch with being fairly advanced is that they're very smart. Yeah, and there is a competition of whose idea is gonna win, yeah, rather than a I need to build somebody else or let another idea come to the front.

SPEAKER_05 12:28

Well then yeah, you know, you have to give them the talk of like, hey, it's a it's a it's a team sport, it's a group activity, we're creating things together. So when you start to just think of my idea is gonna be the loudest and the strongest, you've you stop being a uh uh team player, yeah, for want of a better phrase.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Yeah, but also and then you're not even playing improv. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 12:47

A troop member. Um, yeah, so there's a difference between steering making someone aware of what other choices are, um because you think they have a problem with awareness, yes, and and then telling them that the choice they make they made was wrong, because you're not really doing that. No, the choice they made was a choice they made and it went somewhere, but you were just saying, Oh, were you just but yeah, there's other stuff happening. Other stuff happening, man.

unknown 13:17

You know.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

I mean, yeah, I mean, because I mean, can you say there are better choices than others? Um I mean you can, right? Surely.

SPEAKER_05 13:24

I think you can say there are stronger choices or maybe more obvious choices. Are they better? I don't know. I think it depends. It depends what happens to them.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Right, sure.

SPEAKER_05 13:35

Where they go, what what happens to them?

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Yeah. Yeah, I mean Yeah, it it depends on how people take it and run with it.

SPEAKER_05 13:42

Yeah. So someone might say, well, that that choice A is better than choice B because choice A is where they felt it it was gonna go. But but you know, that's problematic because you say, well, that's where you felt it was gonna go, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's a better choice, it's just better for you. Yes, because that's what you were thinking. So um so I don't know. I don't know if there are better choices. I yeah, no, I do know. I think there aren't. Okay, oh okay, great. There aren't better choices. I think there are stronger choices, and there are choices that um maybe sp spark imagination more or spark joy in an audience more, whatever, whatever. But whether the better or worse, you know, it's it's objective.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

That's a the better or worse thing is you feel well, I I I I don't know. I guess I I think better or worse is helpful, but it is it's still subjective. Like I would I would say that a choice that uh a stronger choice is a better choice.

SPEAKER_05 14:41

Just you know stronger choice is a better choice. Oh, see, then yeah, you got a point there, because if your choice that you made is wishy-washy, yeah, then it's not a good choice.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:52

I mean it's a wishy-washy choice, meaning that oh yeah, oh yeah, you're right. And like, I am a bad person. It's like no, no, make it strong, like be bad. Yeah, yeah. I'm bad, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 15:08

Yeah. Um, yeah, because I think that's an example of some great improv, folks.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

If you are and it's recorded too for all time. Um, yeah, yeah, and I because because I think it's helpful uh I mean for for young people, especially, is just to like give them that. I think also because or anybody who's kind of still learning improv as well, yeah. I mean, we're all still learning, but to have those guideposts of like, oh no, just you know, just make a stronger choice that is in general better or will uh will be will be in general more fun for you and the audience, you know. Um, instead of kind of, you know, I sometimes I feel quite lost, you know, if it's a this kind of desert of oh yeah, just do whatever and everything will be fine and whatever, you know. Um but I guess that's also me not wanting to give in, let go of my control over the scene or the situation, you know. I like having those stakes in the ground of going, okay, you know, great, I can I can make sure those things happen. And then with within within that frame, I can be, you know, experimental or do whatever. Um, yeah, I probably haven't really got to the stage where I could just, I don't know, sit on the stage and do nothing. Or maybe I could, I don't know. You know.

SPEAKER_05 16:25

So um, so we talked about post-show notes. Um, feedback within a scene, well, it's different. Like if you're um rehearsing with a group or if you're in a class, it's completely different because you want to expect your teacher to give you feedback. And in fact, um, that's just reminded me that um in the early days, Ben Over's learning is the improvisations um in Germany. No, it was century Prussia. Oh, good times. Um uh there was um there were a few courses that I did where not myself but other people in the group would get frustrated because I wanted feedback from the teachers. Like the teacher's never giving me notes and not giving me any feedback and it's driving me nuts, yeah. And and you know, that sort of thing. Um I understand their point, but I understand also why the teacher wasn't giving it to them. Um and that is because they didn't want to you don't want to stifle if if creativity is a new thing you're just discovering and you're just sort of discovering how to be free within it, um as a teacher you you don't necessarily want to stifle that in some way until three years in in, and then you can break that, crush them, destroy their soul. Yeah, no, no, not really. Well, you know, so they're ready to kind of you know um have their brain poked to to come back to the poking um analogy. Um that's a callback, but it's um what am I trying to say? I'm trying to say that um I as a teacher am not that, but then again, I also I I have a preference and pretty much exclusively work with improvisers who have been improvising for a while. So I don't do beginners at this stage. Um I have a preference not to do beginners. So so when when improvisers work with me, it's usually they've been doing it for quite a number of years, and and I always give feedback. And it's not to be an arsehole 'cause I love the sound of my own voice, hopefully.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:46

Um it's because I am one to give give you a note and then try as much as time allows in a class to do that scene again or do that or explore that idea again and see how the difference feels. Um but that's a teaching technique rather than uh you know um criticizing someone's work as well.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:16

Um you're just expecting again pointing them towards something different, something new, something that you felt they they didn't see or haven't explored before, or there's something they keep doing, and you want to change that behavior, so you offer something else, a different perspective, and then you want to explore that in the class or in the rehearsal space.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Um the other thing I wanted to talk about though, the and the reason why I've brought this up is because I'm because of our post-podcast chats where I've just criticized you for all your choices, right?

SPEAKER_05 19:50

We never we love each other, we don't criticize each other. Um stop it. Uh yeah, you're my favorite person in the world. That was the James song. Um I okay, I was at a festival and um a a couple of years ago, and I did um we were rehearsing, but part of the festival thing was we had a series of workshops working towards doing a show um as part of the festival and um with a wonderful teacher. And um the workshop the the yeah, it was open, it was an open show, so any level of player was used could be in it. Um and um as we were working up the format, um there were a number of um uh less experienced players who were very, very excited because you know, as they should be, because this is a festival show and they're doing working with this wonderful teacher and it's a really lovely group. Um so uh we were all putting in our ideas and doing scenes, etc. etc. And when it came to to creating the the format of the show, um uh it uh the less experienced players were making strong choices. So so rather than giving them feedback, the the director just let them play. Um and by less experienced players, by by the way, I don't mean people that they were completely new or anything, they were they were just kind of not not really great at creating character or not really great at under seeing what the the um narrative was, or they weren't they weren't skilled in that area, and so the play was messy. Um which is absolutely fine. I I mean I had no you know troubles with that. Um my trouble was that it then sort of made the show feel wishy washy because the director wasn't giving Any clarity of what the aim of the show was or any feedback about how to tighten things up or or make stronger choices to the point where there were a couple of us just kind of didn't want to be in the show.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 22:18

I know that sounds terrible. You can judge me as a terrible person, everyone. That's fine, I understand.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

I already have.

SPEAKER_05 22:23

But for me it wasn't, I didn't want to be in the show because I also felt that it therefore it didn't feel challenging for for me. It didn't feel like um it felt like I was there to be a vehicle to help the newer players. And I I don't mind that that if that's the intention of the show, but that wasn't the intention of the show. And um so it wasn't fun. And a few of us just went, oh yeah, I don't want to be this I don't really want to be in it because it's just there's nothing in it for me. I'm not I'm not I'm not being as creative as I can be. Yes. I'm not feel like I don't feel like I'm being supported in that creativity, so I'm not gonna do it. Um but it was a great show for the people who who didn't have an opportunity perhaps to be in a festival show, to to be in one. And um and I'm and they had a great time, and that's so there you go. So maybe the I mean not even not even maybe. I think the outcome therefore was was positive and good. Oh good. Um but the frustration of not having a director, a director's so kind-hearted, and so that they actually don't give any feedback or any direction, um, I think it is problematic.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:40

Um because then it's uh okay, it's it is wishy-washies. What are you trying to create? And how are you actually helping newer less experienced people by not giving them any direction? I I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

I think I mean I would yeah, I I would I would say that right, and I'm I I'd imagine your degree, I hope. Cross fingers. Um but yeah, the director should should at the very beginning, or maybe, I mean, I suppose you could develop it during the process, but the director needs to have needs to be able to articulate what the the goal of the show is. What what are we trying to accomplish? Um what is the direction?

SPEAKER_05 24:26

What if it's a group-devised piece? I because this was partially group-devised.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Sure. I mean, I would even I would say the very fact that it's group-devised is already part of the direction, right? You've gone, I we are going to devise it together over a series of these weeks. To me, that's already a direction, which is great. But then there's there's the piece of the other piece of the puzzle is setting it out at the beginning and then making sure we continue to head towards that direction. If we change direction, then we need to clarify, you know, with everyone so that we all know, ah, okay, you know what? Um, at this point, we need to, you know, we can't, we can no longer do a group-devised performance for whatever reason. We are now going to move into this other thing, you know, and that's so that we're all on the same page. And unfortunately, I think that would require a post, you know, rehearsal discussion of just this is the goal, and where are we today? You know, in line with that, or what do we need to shift? But I think having it's interesting the idea of yeah, having no feedback. I I think I would struggle with that. But also what I've what I've thought or seen about you know, teaching, um, it it makes me think of this very odd uh analogy. But imagine if the students uh are essentially little um baby chickens, you know, little fluffy yellow little chicks. And thanks for describing baby chicken. They're cute they need to be cute and fluffy. They need to be. Actually, they probably could be ducklings. Ducklings might actually be better. I think ducklings are better. Let's go with ducklings.

SPEAKER_05 26:04

Yellow, yellow beaked, tiny, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

And they're on they're in, they're not in a room, they're on a like a tiled floor, but it extends out infinitely in all directions. And the ducklings want to explore a little bit, right? So they start waddling in different directions, and it just the tiles keep on going forever. So a couple of them kind of get this idea that, yeah, oh, oh, this keeps on going, and they gain speed, right? And they're little duckling, you know, flip flippers or whatever, they're feeding like they're going quite quickly, right? Quick, quick, quick, quick, quick. And they're all kind of just, oh, we can go wherever we want. They explore, explore, explore. Until one of them suddenly out of nowhere smacks into an invisible wall. Just smacks quite hard because he's going quickly. And suddenly they realize at some point in this infinite room or wherever they are, there are walls that they cannot see. So what happens is from that joy and that freedom and that speed, suddenly all of that vanishes and they become incredibly conservative with where they move now because they're afraid of the invisible walls. And for me, that analogy can be, I see that or I fear about that when I'm teaching. And I want my students to explore and be and have fun and go at great speed, but I need to be very careful about pulling up, you know, rules or or or limits or whatever while they're doing it, right? As opposed to maybe setting up the floor of okay, this is the ground you get to explore and play in, you get to play in this. Obviously, the huge benefit of not knowing there are walls is that you just you just go. You go at speed and you ex and you go to weird places, and it's great. But when you hit that wall, it can really change your attitude towards experimentation.

SPEAKER_05 28:05

And I worry sometimes that that that yeah, when they what would be an example of that wall?

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Um I I have an example of in my head, I already have an example of something that's not quite like that, but maybe I could, you know, draw it out to be like that. I had um uh, you know, I was teaching students, and we were doing they're you know, they're quite advanced, and um we were doing a uh we were doing a conversation using only numbers, right? So the rules are that you have a real conversation with your partner, but you can only speak using numbers. You only go up by one number each time, and everything you want to say, you say just in a single number. So if I'm having um, you know, if we have a conversation, then it'd be like one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. So good, very good. So um well done. Um you pass. But but so what they were doing is I was telling them don't worry about the pace, you know, because a real conversation ebbs and flows. Um and they've been doing this, this is wow warm-ups and they've been doing these warm-ups for you know months. And which is good because I want to kind of get them to the point of boredom, right? Because then they're not, then they're also the skill really needs to be embedded in them. But also when they get bored, you start to figure out ways to play.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

So what they ended up doing was they started jumping around in numbers. They just you know, they went one, eleven, thirty-seven, ten trillion, negative five. And I let it, I just I didn't start, I didn't stop them, I just let it go. Yeah, right. And I I could have, I suppose I could have, I after, you know, after they had finished, or you know, I moved on to the next person, and they and they kind of, I could see that look in me, that little cheeky, you know, they looked and like, is he gonna, you know, like did he did he notice that you know we were not doing it accurately correctly or whatever? And I said, I said, like I I basically wanted to say to them that it's fine. Like you you're allowed to bend the rules and break the rules, and I you have my permission, you know. But also, I don't think I clarified it at the time, but I kind of also wanted to say to them, like, but did you realize that you ended up searching for a new random number rather than actually be inside the conversation with each other? Yeah, right. I think they got that a little bit, but I could have clarified it a bit more, I suppose.

SPEAKER_05 30:50

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Does that kind of I mean it doesn't quite illustrate the point, but but it's like it's it's kind of like if I if I leave it open like that, and then that they keep on playing and playing until you know, until I don't know, so then they don't do numbers, they start doing words, and they start going back to sentences and they go, okay, stop. Then suddenly they're like, oh wait, the experimentation has an end.

SPEAKER_05 31:13

Like, great. Here's the problem though, yeah what they were doing. Is they they weren't this were they experimenting because they were being playful with each other, or were they experimenting because they wanted to see, let's see what James I really I'm very confident they were playing with each other.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Okay. It was more like they're just double checking, like, okay, oh, is that you know, did he notice? And like, is that okay? It's like all right.

SPEAKER_05 31:33

So if they were playing with each other, then they were still connected in the scene with with one another.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Yeah, I think so. But but but they do, they did end up you can tell they're just trying to now make up a new number rather than actually Great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:45

Okay, that's good. Then then the feedback would be, you know, it was great, that was fun, you were messing with each other, yeah. You were both in it, having a good time. Be aware that it's though that at some point though, you feel that did you feel that moment where you stopped having kind of connecting with each other and you started to try and outdo each other, and then you got then your attention was drawn into yourself. Yes. Did you feel that moment? Great. Or or if they didn't, you go, okay, well that it that would have come around this time. You make them aware of it. Yes. But you don't stop them from being creative, you're just making them aware of how was that different to what they normally do? What do they learn from that?

SPEAKER_02 32:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:30

Oh, you're not putting up a wall and saying, don't ever do that. You must play this game. This you're not saying, no, no, guys, stop. You have to go do it in numerical order. You know, you're not putting up a wall that's gonna stop them from being from exploring or being creative.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:45

Actually, because they did it right up until they got to the point where they started to want to be smart.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Yes, yes, yes. No, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 32:52

And I mean, right, they in that they did it in that they did it with with good intention and with an open heart and open wavelengths.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. Actually, maybe maybe this is kind of that wall.

SPEAKER_05 33:06

A wall is when you say, no, don't do that. Come in, say this.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Okay, I did something like that. So they had just started the same group, different people, they had just started a scene, um, and one of them um I can't remember what it was. One of them made an offer, the other one blocked it, basically. Yes, you know, like, oh, where you know, you know, something like um it was basically something like, oh, darling, where have you been? And the other person was like, Who are you? What are you doing in my house? Right? So that's where I immediately was like, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. They established they know you, you know. Right. That was the wall I put up.

SPEAKER_05 33:40

Yeah. So I mean, I guess they I don't think that's a wall. I think that's great. Oh, okay. Again, there are some things that you do have to go know.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Yes, yeah, yeah. As a teacher, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:52

And and look, I'm also saying this because I'm absolutely guilty of it. I think I do it, in fact, too much.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Do you do what?

SPEAKER_05 34:01

No, go back, do that again, say something else, is what I say. Oh. Um, but there's a good reason why I do it. Yes. Um, at least it risked to me, and I do, and I hopefully explain it because I try to. I don't just say it for the sake of it and then have people feel like shit.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Yeah. Um the so your example was like, yeah, somebody made an like right off the bat at the very beginning of a scene. Somebody made an offer. Oh, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_05 34:28

And they didn't pay. Yeah, no, no, nope, stop, go back.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:32

And you and you say that do you know what you you do why I'm stopping you?

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Hmm. Yeah, I was like, I was like, no, no, no. That person just established this thing. Don't block them, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. And then they were like, oh, okay, okay, okay. And then they go kind of went with it.

SPEAKER_05 34:46

Yeah, good. Ask them though.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Ask them. Do you know why I stopped you? Do you know why? Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_05 34:53

Because that was a shit choice, partially, but also because or oh, I don't know, because I didn't or was it yeah. I like that because you weren't listening to the other person and you didn't respond to what they just gave you.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Yes, because especially because that group is very advanced, they want, yeah, they have those competing ideas thing. Yeah. And I and I I'm quite sure that yeah, if I did ask them, hey, why do you think I stopped? I reckon they would very quickly go, Oh, I yes, of course, I blocked that person because I was coming in with this idea I wanted to do. Um, yeah. So I think ask, yeah, I'll definitely do that next time is ask them why uh they think I've stopped the scene. Um, get them to work it out. Yeah, yeah. Because I think they know. But it's just that, you know, it's that it's that adrenaline of like, I'm on, I'm in a scene, I want to do what I want to do. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:40

Yeah, it's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

And it's taken me a long time, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:45

The feedback isn't to kind of you don't it isn't there to destroy that that energy. It isn't there to to make any the intention should never be to make someone feel bad or to destroy the energy. The intention is to steer them towards being a better improviser.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Yeah, but intention I mean like you might not intend, but it can hurt to run into that wall when you think you're experimenting.

SPEAKER_05 36:16

Yeah. Yeah, I I guess it can because you think it's a judgment on what you've just you know, the you're vulnerable you've been vulnerable and you made this choice in creative, and you think you might you think it's a judgment on that. You might think you probably do think it's a judgment on that. But it's also but you have to also then I I think that's also really important. I think that's an important thing for improvisers to learn also, because it's also a strength to learn how to overcome that and not have it affect how you see yourself. Yes, the the resilience.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

The resilience. So when I'm teaching adults who are beginners in acting, yeah, that's that's where I will I don't want to let them experiment or run very far before a wall comes up. Because I think of of the groups that I teach, it's the new adults who are the most sensitive to like not yeah, not necessarily feedback, but running into a wall, you know, because uh, you know, kids are so much young people are so much more resilient and they're so much more playful and open to just trying new stuff. But you kind of you get that drilled out of you as an adult. So to have the courage to come back and be like, oh, I'm gonna I want to try acting, you know, I want to try being vulnerable. For me, I have to be, I feel I have to, you know, have be quite gentle, you know, and and not let them race too far ahead before I can gently, you know, be like, oh that's that's that's the limit there. But I do love, you know, uh of you know, of them giving them permission to try stuff. Yeah, you know, even even thing, you know, even things like um uh yeah, oh, oh, suddenly you know, we're doing a scene or whatever, oh, but we introduce another character, or we can just grab another actor for who's watching and bring them into the scene with us? We can do that, stuff like that, right? That's so lovely and and open for everyone to go, oh the there, you know, there's so much room to explore. But then just to keep a keep a hold on it so that it doesn't just go out of control, yeah. You know, but without and without people going, oh, but I thought we were playing or I thought we were experimenting, you know. So yeah, that's really um fun, but I I I feel from my experience, the adults I have to, the adult beginners I have to be a bit more, I feel I have to be more um structured about.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

But coming back to the post-show uh feedback or discussion, it's interesting like notes in notes, because I found um we brought this up a long time ago in in one of our earlier episodes about the the risk and of failure in improv. And you know, talking about how well, you know, if it's really improv, we should be risking something every show, you know, and really if we're walking away from the show, can it really be a success every single night? Right. I think we agreed that it can. Um, but that's what's that was the funny thing is post-show chatting to the other troop members and everybody being kind of surprised and that it was good, you know, you know, or just being like that was good that went well. Yeah, and then you're kind of like thinking about feedback and going, uh yeah, no, that was generally good. And then like, oh well, I don't really have much feedback. Uh there's something wrong or something right, you know, like surely we can improve, but also that felt fine, you know?

SPEAKER_05 39:45

Just yeah, just sit in the happiness and walk away and go and have a drink at the bar.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 39:51

Yeah, don't give notes if you don't need to, and even then don't give lots of notes, just things like, okay, I thought the beginning was messy. Um yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Oh, absolutely. And also, because also, you know, I've had shows where I've had shows because I, you know, I would host as well. And during during the show, um, you know, I I thought we weren't, I thought we weren't the audience didn't quite like us very much. So I was kind of doing a little bit of you know jokes about, oh, you know, we're we're not, we're not don't worry, we're not very good, you know. We'll just take your money and run. And then afterwards, James, and then afterwards, afterwards, the audience that we talked to really enjoyed like every audience member we enjoy uh really enjoyed us. The feedback was really positive. And I think one other troop member of mine or whatever was like, Yeah, I think you could have eased up on the self-deprecating jokes because I think they were really enjoying us. So it just goes to show like I inside of it, I couldn't tell you know how we were doing.

SPEAKER_05 40:50

Yeah, you can't.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

And yeah, it it my feedback might have been quite uh you know, faulty or or not helpful if I was to try and go, well, you know, we should have done this or whatever, you know. So yeah, I totally agree. Um post-show feedback, especially from a performer inside of it.

SPEAKER_05 41:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Yeah, if it yeah, if it feels good or even if it doesn't, you know, I mean, maybe don't judge it straight away. Don't vivisect it.

SPEAKER_05 41:17

Yeah. I think you know though, whether I think um I think post-show feedback from someone inside the show is is um not ideal. You want someone outside, yeah. You want the director to be watching the show and then give you feedback. Yeah. Um and they're not in it. But I don't think it's impossible. I think I think though you need to be mindful that oh, I've been in the show, so I've got kind of my perspective is a little askew. Um and then the feedback is simply like, oh yeah, I wasn't sure whether we were all on the same page for this this scene. How did you guys feel? Then then short discussion is fine.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Well, that's nice because that's more of a check-in.

SPEAKER_05 42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

And I think that's a nice, like, humble way of doing it because instead of saying, I felt this scene was crap, you know, what did you guys feel like? No, never do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:09

Ever come in and be that strongly opinionated about it. Um often too, people will know if something went badly, the the cast already know. And you don't need to tell them. You just go, well, that didn't that that scene two didn't really work well, but let's just chalk that up to, you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Yeah. To the to improv, right?

SPEAKER_05 42:31

And then if you know you want everyone to go, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. Yeah, usually what then happens is everyone starts apologizing. Oh, I'm so sorry. I started so sorry, I forgot.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

I should have realized I should have realized you were making candles, and then it could have been about the That's what usually happens.

SPEAKER_05 42:46

Everyone starts apologizing for their choice for what they did, and then you say, No, it's okay. Oh, well, then you just debrief and then you go, okay, we've learned something.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Yeah, I think yeah, yeah, I like that. The yeah, post-show feedback being more of a check-in and a debrief. Yeah. And if because if there's things in your head that you're like, yeah, do you want to check in with the other troop members? Hey, did I like was I open enough in that scene, or was I on the same page with you, or do you think I um, you know, whatever was railroading or whatever that bit? Um then it's yeah, it's a check-in as opposed to a I'm telling you this, that, and the other.

SPEAKER_05 43:24

Yeah. I like that too.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Hmm. And and it's also nice, because yeah, then obviously you're building connection reliance upon the troop members as as as its own equilibrium, right?

SPEAKER_05 43:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Um so yeah, I think that's a very helpful way of doing it.

SPEAKER_05 43:41

Yeah, good. Yeah. It's a lear I mean, it's been a learning journey for me too. I don't think I've I've been particularly good at it. I think when I first started directing, it was this whole thing of oh no, I'm in charge. Uh I have to, you know, show that I know what I'm doing and And so I I think I was very heavy handed for a long time. Um and then of course you realise how much that affects people and you go, oh shit. Um that's that's uh learning, right? Yeah. Yeah it is. Um 'cause no one teaches you how to be in this improv world. You know, we were all kind of fumbling our way through how to be have you know the the tiny careers that we have in in the in improv is um you know there isn't um an easy way to to to to make your way through it other than to just live through it.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

Yeah and and make mistakes and make mistakes um yeah and then apologize for them and do better next time. Yeah and then ha and then and then hopefully other people also can um learn vicariously.

SPEAKER_05 44:56

That's right. Wow on that profound note, I think I think that's do we have anything else to say about that subject, that topic?

SPEAKER_00 45:05

For now, I think so.

SPEAKER_05 45:06

I think we're okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

If you have anything to tell us, yes, please.

SPEAKER_05 45:10

Um you can write to us. Where can they write to us, um James?

SPEAKER_00 45:13

They've got uh we've got an email, they've got we've got an email address. Yes, uh lindatellsjames at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_05 45:21

Yeah. Oh is that right? Yes it is lindartellsjames at gmail.com or you can find us on Facebook, just do a search on Linda Tells James and you'll see our two little faces pop up. You can leave a comment on there.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Let us know what you think.

SPEAKER_05 45:37

That's probably better if you want to go into detail.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Or leave us um reviews or um star ratings uh wherever you get your podcast.

SPEAKER_05 45:45

Please give us show us some love, folks. If you love us, if you don't, it's okay. Thanks for listening. You probably turned off a while ago. Um, yeah, thanks. Thanks for listening. There's another thing too I wanted to say please to everyone. Um uh I want to start a um kind of agony art thing. Like James can help you with this. So if you have an improv dilemma uh that can be anything like you know, there aren't enough Mars bars in that rehearsal room. There aren't what do I do? Yeah, there isn't enough candy in our rehearsal room to this guy keeps coming in and playing the same character and I and and uh and he forces me to do the same scene with him or whatever, or um uh whatever your problem is, um be it um not too silly, but we genuinely will try and help you. So if you have something that you would like us to um help you solve, send it to us at the Gmail address, which is lindatelsjames at gmail.com, and we'll do our darnedest to find a solution for you.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

We will.

SPEAKER_05 47:01

We will treat it with seriousness, folks.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Very, very much so. Yeah, but yeah. Thank you for listening, everyone. Thanks, everybody. But um, we'll see you all next time.

SPEAKER_05 47:09

Thanks, James.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Thanks, Linda.

SPEAKER_05 47:10

I love you back.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Love you too.